New York Times Takes Notice of the Prosperity 'Gospel'

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Permalink Reply by Pamela Cook Dreyer on August 17, 2009 at 8:37am

Hey Pete, you know this will be a lively discussion for sure. I read this outrageous article. The sad thing is that it appears that the media will be the judge of the body of Christ. IMHO this is because too many in the church are so captured by the love of money and power to do anything about this vile madness and scourge. I think people forget that Jesus drove out the moneychangers with a whip in an attempt to rescue the people being taken advantage of along with the moneychangers. In most cases they may purposely ignore that this was done so they can feed their souls and they think hopefully their wallets.

Another sad thing is that the value of the dollar could change tomorrow on a whim or national disaster. When Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, married reporter a while back I used to joke that people better pray that his marriage is good because the markets would shift in minutes just because of a statement he would say. We need money to use as a mode of exchange for goods. At the same time you never really know what you have because our dollar is not based on anything, hasn't been for decades. For anyone to trust in money is trusting in a foundation of sand.

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Permalink Reply by iktusNETwork on August 17, 2009 at 9:34am

The original article of the New York Times with pictures and a slide show can be seen by clicking this link.

Note: it is the 7th most read article of the New York Times online.

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Permalink Reply by Doug Lee on August 17, 2009 at 2:16pm

I have heard some good teaching from Ken Copeland, so it baffles me a bit that he would get off into this "stuff." I could say more about this, but it's not my place to do so. I'll just say that if these prosperity preachers are truly walking with God, the possibility does exist that the Holy Spirit will convict them of this error.

The article did mention that some came looking for healing. I wonder how many actually got healed. Which is a better sign of prosperity, how much you paid for your private jet, or how many empty wheelchairs you leave behind when a meeting is over?

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Permalink Reply by Pete on August 18, 2009 at 11:51am

What frustrates me the most, and what I'm equally guilty of, is not really doing enough to tell people how things really work with finances. Bringing it up on this forum, I believe, wouldn't really do anything to persuade anybody since we're all of a like mind. I wanted it to be a milestone for us to look at and remember just where we're at, not only with God, but with our own maturity and with other people.

I've become a little leery of talking about Christian finances with people because some very close friends of mine are Copeland addicts and believe that his is the way to prosperity. These people were the same ones that introduced me to the Prayer Center, and the very ones that helped inspire me to move down to Tulsa and attend the church. They moved down later on as well, but skipped out on the church after about a month because of Gary's 'admonishing of the prosperity message'.

After I saw for myself in the bible where Jesus talks about true prosperity, I'd ask the friends for clarification about Coepland's messages after hearing him speak on things such as the likenesses of the tree of life being a form of the tithe (or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, don't remember exactly), and the walls would shoot up. I'd immediately get shot down, no matter how relevant or pressing the question.

Since then I haven't exactly been thrilled about bringing up the issue of finances with Christians because it seems as though so many people are more intent on getting themselves blessed than making sure they're a blessing to others. Right now...I'm one of those people too. I still deal with the questions and uncertainty in my mind when I give to the church, but I give nonetheless and apologize profusely for the selfish thoughts that entered my mind.

I had a friend of mine get $8000 for a motorcycle accident he was involved in, and he was bound and determined to give $800 of it to a ministry somewhere, even if his heart wasn't particularly in it, and his wife didn't really want to do it at all! I gently tried to fill them in on things, but they wouldn't hear it.

I guess the thing I'm dealing with most that's so frustrating is that the prosperity people are so bull-headed, but a lot of times, so are we. It's like we're as bent on correcting them as they are on correcting us, and then it turns into nothing but a heated, opinionated debate. God's been working on getting me to leave more people with Him, to the point where all I do is be myself and let God work on their heart, since that's what would be the most convincing thing. And I know that's not some shiny new revelation, but not many people go to the church for anything more than that: Heaven's news.

So if it's money that still talks to church people, what can we do about it besides pressing into God enough to power past the selfishness of ourselves and destroy that part of us that cares more of our own successes than that of others? More than anything, I have to deal with frustration and hopelessness when it comes to the clarity of the gospel for most Christians, but I'm getting better about it. I don't understand why people would choose to justify themselves and pretend they're unaccountable, but I guess I was probably like that for enough of my life to just accept them the way they are.

And Jesus (and Solomon, in Proverbs) exhorted people to give to the poor, but that also would involve accountability, and a 'dirtying of the hands', so to speak. We can see how many people try to cleanse their conscience by giving to ministries who give to the poor, and that's not necessarily wrong unless it's not what God said to do. I mean...Jason & Tara's ministry wouldn't go very far if people didn't give to them so they can give to the poor, but God's been talking to me (and how many others?) about giving to and working with the poor directly. I keep putting that off and putting that off, and when I ask myself why, it's just because I don't have a long term plan on how to do it. I'm starting to come to terms with that though, as well as a number of other things I've been postponing.

As for me personally, I'm still in San Antonio, probably for another week or two helping a friend of mine get his business started. I haven't been as diligent to be with God as I should be, so I'd appreciate your prayers. I desperately miss the church (and my wife), I have a tremendous amount of respect for people who 'attend' the Prayer Center from a distance. I salute all of you!

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Permalink Reply by Charles Atkinson on August 19, 2009 at 9:58am

I have also run into stiff opposition from someone who held to their traditional view of giving. I saw the religious devil manifest in our discussion!

So now I hold to the position that you stated, and I liked how you said it, "God's been working on getting me to leave more people with Him, to the point where all I do is be myself and let God work on their heart, since that's what would be the most convincing thing." I don't feel a false obligation to hound people - either in evangelism or about giving or anything else about the message or gospel.

Now I DO want my fruit to increase. And I know I must have the same heart He has for folks to be my heart also. But I realize that is not something I can manufacture within myself; I can simply yield myself to the Spirit and ask Him to change the desires of my heart.

I have found it interesting that scripture states by giving to the poor (not by sowing into a good soil ministry) that we are blessed (see Pr.22:9). Yes, I agree that finding a reputable ministry that cares for the poor is an excellent way of doing so (because they have the accountability and means already established).

Pete, I enjoy seeing people being honestly open. It sure seems to be the fastest way to connect.
(One way you could start working with the poor directly is to continue being involved with Jason & Tara.)
I think the key to maturity is to remain teachable.

Now I want to say something directly to your statement about "dirtying our hands." This past weekend I was on a float trip down the Illinois. There was so much partying going on it was rowdy and crowded. Now that was fun to me because I enjoyed the energy and excitement. However, there was an increased level of risk because of the alcohol.

My point is this: we came across one lady who was being dragged down the river by a friend because she was blitzed. Now it seems there are two responses most religious folks would take.

1) they wouldn't get involved because they wouldn't want to "get their hands dirty" with a drunk, nor would they want to be seen with that kind of person. "Oh! What would someone think if they saw me 'hanging out' with an alcoholic!"

And 2) they may not think it a serious or dangerous situation because they'd never been in that place themselves; so they wouldn't get involved. They may think, "That person just needs to get a grip. They could do something about their situation if they really wanted to." But because most Christians have never been drunk (not saying they need to be), they can't relate, nor fully comprehend the helplessness a person in that condition could experience. It seems most Christians despise the drunk - forgetting that a sinner can't help being a sinner, and a person in bondage can't free themselves.

Why else have we been given hope, unless it is to impart that hope to those without hope?
~Let the compassion of Christ increase in our hearts!~

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Permalink Reply by Doug Lee on August 19, 2009 at 11:01pm

Pete, you brought up a good issue: how to deal with people caught in this deception. Actually, we need to know how to deal with people caught in ANY deception.

Jesus had to deal with such people during His ministry. I'm sure there were times He kept silent, and we know at times He confronted them without holding anything back. When He did confront, it was not to argue, but to expose and correct the error. The problem on our part is when we read those passages where He confronted error, we don't know what tone of voice He used. I know my natural thinking is to assume He spoke in anger. I'm sure anger was a factor, but know I can see where pain or sorrow could have been a stronger influence.

Sometimes, Jesus used questions. ["Whose image is on this coin?" ] That drew their focus and attention to a detail they hadn't considered, which He then gave Him an opportunity to expose truth. If someone starts talking about the hundredfold return, just say you don't agree with that view, and ask how the Parable of the Sower has anything to do with money. The important thing to remember, is to do it in love, or else just keep silent and turn them over to God.

Sometimes a simple statement can work. When I was a new Christian, hadn't been filled with the Spirit very long, I had a brief encounter with a famous preacher that set me free. I had my own private deception going, and I told this preacher about it. He replied that I had a spirit of spiritual pride. As soon as he said that, I knew I had been deceived, and immediately stopped believing that deception. Good thing I did, or I would have been totally messed up, and probably would have started my own cult.

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